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Post by littlegeneral99 on Jun 13, 2010 6:17:50 GMT -5
was watching Ken Burns excellent documentary about the civil war and it got me thinking whether it was possible for any state to secede from the union today?
i know Texas governor Rick Perry hinted last year about it but is it constutionally possible?
if so what state is more likely to do this.
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Post by sonofabelch on Jun 14, 2010 5:32:23 GMT -5
Legally, no, not according to Federal law. Much like everything else in the US, the Federal system has pretty much swallowed up and legally suppressed anything even remotely resembling autonomy or statehood. What used to be a collection of territories united under a loose federation is now merely an afterthought, with the Federal Gov't keeping tight control on anything the people happen to not pay attention to.
There was a time when the Federal Gov't would sneak in legislation that would quietly chip away at State's autonomy, but now they don't bother to hide it any more. Any "disaster" is an opening to swiftly pass sweeping legislation designed to close the net and any loose ends left from previous legislative endeavors. Besides disasters (whether natural or otherwise), the surest way to grab more control is to create positions within communities with Federal funds, thereby creating a "need" for the position, and especially the funding for said positions.
For a prime example of this method, see President Bill Clinton's passing of legislation that created thousands of law enforcement positions in local communities. While it sounds good on the surface for these communities, the trick is in the funding. The initial funding for these positions came from the Federal Gov't, but it only lasted a year. After the initial year was up, it was up to state and local communities to fund the new positions. This placed the states and local communities into a no win situation. They either had to find ways to come up with the future funding (read higher taxes), or they had to face voters in election years and explain to them how they were going to cut back on local law enforcement and emergency workers. The third option is designed to be the way to go: Beg the Feds for further funding of the positions they created in the first place. Hence, states now have yet another Federal tit they are forced to suck on.
That's just one of the many ways our Fed government works it's way into the fabric of our freedom.
What you are left with these days are no longer states, but Federal "counties" with little legal room left to bitch about it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2010 19:17:24 GMT -5
Not an expert but I believe that the Civil War set a precedent for dealing with cessation..As a 35 year resident of the North (13 in the south since) I was raised on anti secessionist politics...I,m certain that if I had been raised in the deep south my views would be different...The "War for Southern Independence" is pretty much an unknown entity in the north. I guess Texas would be most likely to secede.It has great wealth and territory...The south never got over the Civil War and probably never will..Sometimes its necessary to send in Federal troops when Southern governors deny citizens their rights.Thankfully this hasn,t happened in like 50 years.....I enclose vintage headline www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0925.html
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Post by Bob Ill on Jun 16, 2010 11:29:58 GMT -5
I think, and hope, that as the US federal government slowly goes bankrupt, that governance will slowly and peacefully devolve lower and lower from state to county to city, town and neighborhood until finally individuals self-govern.
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Post by sonofabelch on Jun 20, 2010 10:27:06 GMT -5
I'm just about at the point where I agree 100% with you on this one now, although I think it's decline will come with much violence, rather than a peaceful eradication of it's power. It will fight as an injured animal would in it's last days.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2010 12:40:16 GMT -5
I think, and hope, that as the US federal government slowly goes bankrupt, that governance will slowly and peacefully devolve lower and lower from state to county to city, town and neighborhood until finally individuals self-govern. the problem with this hope is the peacefully part. it wont go that way
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2010 12:41:48 GMT -5
I'm just about at the point where I agree 100% with you on this one now, although I think it's decline will come with much violence, rather than a peaceful eradication of it's power. It will fight as an injured animal would in it's last days. there has only been change in this country via voilence. an example is martin luther kings passive ways. they didnt work. not untill cities like detroit and cleveland were literally ablaze was there finally change in this example.
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Post by sonofabelch on Jun 20, 2010 14:47:34 GMT -5
Good point. I find it strange that we have a peaceful change of power every 4-8 years but most social changes, or any major change of any note are violent. The monster that has evolved into what we call the government won't go down without violence.
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Post by littlegeneral99 on Jun 22, 2010 11:18:46 GMT -5
Good point. I find it strange that we have a peaceful change of power every 4-8 years but most social changes, or any major change of any note are violent. The monster that has evolved into what we call the government won't go down without violence. what real chance politically have you got to change the status quo? from what i have read on here virtually none. it would seem as you suggest any change would be from massive upheaval and violence. over here,we can withdraw from European Union via political means and here in Scotland can ask to dissolve the 1707 act of union for independence if the Scottish people wish for it. we have options politically whereas i cannot see anything other than the status quo in America.
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Post by littlegeneral99 on Jun 22, 2010 11:19:29 GMT -5
Good point. I find it strange that we have a peaceful change of power every 4-8 years but most social changes, or any major change of any note are violent. The monster that has evolved into what we call the government won't go down without violence. what real chance politically have you got to change the status quo? from what i have read on here virtually none. it would seem as you suggest any change would be from massive upheaval and violence. over here,we can withdraw from European Union via political means and here in Scotland can ask to dissolve the 1707 act of union for independence from the UK,if the Scottish people wish for it. we have options politically whereas i cannot see anything other than the status quo in America.
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Post by sonofabelch on Jun 22, 2010 16:59:19 GMT -5
Good point. I find it strange that we have a peaceful change of power every 4-8 years but most social changes, or any major change of any note are violent. The monster that has evolved into what we call the government won't go down without violence. what real chance politically have you got to change the status quo? from what i have read on here virtually none. it would seem as you suggest any change would be from massive upheaval and violence. over here,we can withdraw from European Union via political means and here in Scotland can ask to dissolve the 1707 act of union for independence if the Scottish people wish for it. we have options politically whereas i cannot see anything other than the status quo in America. There is no real chance that would be considered "legal". In legal terms, it's pretty sewn up tight. In the moral, or maybe even philosophical realm, change is not only possible, but has occurred many times within our borders in many different areas of our culture. In many cases, these movements have led to sweeping legal changes, as well. This biggest issue I see holding any real change back is the lack of leadership. That, and the lack of will to sustain any real change for the better for some reason or another. To me, it seems the country has let out a long collective sigh of defeat long ago and now simply takes what's coming when it comes without much resistance. I don't know....something like battered wife syndrome or something has taken root.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2010 6:17:52 GMT -5
Gar Damn! Nothing like a couple of Millers...Me thinks that the country has been check mated...Every defense mechanism....every denial apparatus.....every talk radio demagogue...every slick talking used car salesman,...every hollerin baptist preacher man...has failed in his mission to keep us anesthetized from the simple truth..And what is this truth? "Due to present economic factors it is hereby officially announced that all of us working class Americans are now officially peasants" Thats about the size of it..Divide and conquor..Thats what the pigs have done...
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